Resurrection - what happens?

[Steve W]

Who is ressurrected? are all people?
What happens to the ressurrected?
Is there really a Lake of Fire?

[Steve W]

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (Jn 5:28)

[RobLawson]

In Matthew 3, John the Baptist said Jesus would baptise with fire

[Steve W]

was this fire unpleasant? Does it cause torment? - No. What is it referring to - the fire of the Spirit? the empowering cleansing purging sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.... I think so in this case.

[Steve W]

Does the forum think that everybody who ever lived will be resurrected from the graves when Jesus returns?

[RobLawson]

Originally Posted by Steve W

was this fire unpleasant? Does it cause torment? - No. What is it referring to - the fire of the Spirit? the empowering cleansing purging sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.... I think so in this case.

Ezekiel 22:17-22
[17] And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

[18] Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are even the dross of silver.

[19] Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.

[20] As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you.

[21] Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.

[22] As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the Lord have poured out my fury upon you.

Baptism of fire is a baptism with a responsibility to the judgement to come

[dkiversen]

Originally Posted by Steve W

Does the forum think that everybody who ever lived will be resurrected from the graves when Jesus returns?

No. We're plainly told so.

Isaiah 26:13-14
O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This harmonises with passages that say all will be raised once we recognise the idiomatic use of "all" in passages like these:

Matthew 3:5-6
Then went out to [John the Baptist] Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, and were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Mark 1:4-5
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Luke 3:2-3, 7, 21
... the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
...
Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
...
Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

John 1:6-7
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 3:26
And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

We know that every single person didn't believe through John, and that every single person wasn't baptised by John and that every single person didn't come to Jesus.

All and everyone are also used in this kind of way in modern English too.

Incidentally, due to the population explosion of the last couple of centuries it's estimated that 19/20 of all people who've ever lived are alive now. Useful to remember if an atheist smugly claims that there wouldn't be room for all the redeemed to fit on the earth.

[Steve W]

dk - then what does this mean.....

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (Jn 5:28)

What is the "resurrection of damnation"?

Do you not agree with this verse in Acts....

"there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." (Acts 24:15)

[dkiversen]

Originally Posted by Steve W

dk - then what does this mean.....

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (Jn 5:28)

What is the "resurrection of damnation"?

Do you not agree with this verse in Acts....

"there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." (Acts 24:15)

"All that are in the graves" harmonises with Daniel 12:2 and Isaiah 26:13-14 if "all" is being used the same way as in the references to John the Baptist and Jesus baptising. Acts 24:15 is consistent with Daniel 12:2.

Correctly interpreted scriptures harmonise. If doctrines and precepts of men are read into scriptures they lead to contradictions, as Jesus frequently demonstrated with the traditions of the scribes and Pharisees.

How do Daniel 12:2 and Isaiah 26:13-14 harmonise with the interpretation you've currently chosen?

[moorea944]

Not all people will rise. We know this from scripture talking about people who do NOT know God's word and will NOT rise from the dead. The bible talks about the Babylonians, on how they will not be raised from the dead because they did not want to hear God's words.

So who will raise from the dead? People who are baptised in "truth" and people who know God's word. People who know God's word and are not baptised will not be in the Kingdom. People who are baptised will be raised and have a chance.

Remember the words of John.. Know the "truth" about God's Word.

[Steve W]

what then are the following verses referring to -

1. who is this speaking about - which resurrected ones will receive shame and everlasting contempt....? (see underlined words)

"many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan 12:2)

2. What is the resurrection of damnation? who will be resurrected to face damnation?

"all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth.... they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation"

3. Who are the 'unjust' as oposed to the 'just' here....?

"there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." (Acts 24:15)

[dkiversen]

Originally Posted by Steve W

what then are the following verses referring to -

1. who is this speaking about - which resurrected ones will receive shame and everlasting contempt....? (see underlined words)

"many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan 12:2)

2. What is the resurrection of damnation? who will be resurrected to face damnation?

"all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth.... they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation"

3. Who are the 'unjust' as oposed to the 'just' here....?

"there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust." (Acts 24:15)

It looks like we now agree that many will be raised, rather than every single person who's ever lived.

Those who are totally ignorant of God live and die like animals. Those who have had an opportunity to respond to God are resurrected and judged according to how they responded.

The just are those found in the Lamb's book of life. The remainder are condemned (damned in early 17th century English). The penalty for not being found in the book of life is the second death, annihilation in the lake of fire / valley of Hinnom. I'm happy to take this literally or symbolically.

The reference to the Lamb's book of life confirms John 5:21-27 where we're told that God has delegated judgement to Jesus.

[Steve W]

dk - my question to you: where do you get this key basis of your position from in the Bible?.... "Those who have had an opportunity to respond to God are resurrected and judged according to how they responded."

by the way - I rather believe that when it says "all who are in the graves will come forth" this means exactly as it says - all who are in the graves. I think that to say otherwise is to play tricks with words to try to fit a preconceived notion at odds with the plain reading of scripture.

I think that quoting that single Old Testament verse from Isaiah, saying that these Babylonians will not rise is not referring to the resurrection. From the context it probably is simply stating that their temporal power is to be terminated - they will not continue in their dominating presence and continue to be a threat to Israel. It cannot really be used as a proof text for denying comprehensive resurrection. Especially as there are no other verses to corroborate this view. But even if not, then it proves the eternal demise of God's enemies - that they will not see eternal life - but this is not proof against resurrection - it maybe that they receive the resurrection of damnation.... which is not life at all - I Agree that "eternal life" will only be given to the children of God.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25)

At face value this reads like all the world will stand before God, and be divided to eternal life and eternal punishment - the Babylonians in Isaiah presumably falling into the latter category, failing to enjoy eternal life.

[dkiversen]

Originally Posted by Steve W

by the way - I rather believe that when it says "all who are in the graves will come forth" this means exactly as it says - all who are in the graves. I think that to say otherwise is to play tricks with words to try to fit a preconceived notion at odds with the plain reading of scripture.

I think that quoting that single Old Testament verse from Isaiah, saying that these Babylonians will not rise is not referring to the resurrection.

My preconception used to be of universal resurrection. I've changed this view because the Holy Spirit revealed to me by the scriptures that some won't be raised from the dead.

I quoted 2 parts of the Old Testament. One of these you've quoted yourself, Daniel 12:2 MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake..., which is why I though we were in agreement. MANY rising from the dead is consistent with the usage of pas in the NT.

As to the context of Isaiah 26

Of the Assyrians and Babylonians v14:
They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish. ‬

Of the children of Israel v19:
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. ‬

The context is very clearly of resurrection from the dead.

[Steve W]

dk - my primary question to you again: where do you get this key basis of your position from in the Bible?....

Quote: "Those who have had an opportunity to respond to God are resurrected and judged according to how they responded." (and consequently those who haven't had this opportunity are not resurrected)

This is not anything I have ever read in the Bible friend!

( secondary question: Do you believe that the only people who will be resurrected are those who have come into contact with Christadelphianism?)

To reiterate: Where in the Bible do you find this concept of the only people who are resurrected being those who have had opportunity to respond to God? Please share the verses with me. This is a very significant concept, and I would need it to be clearly given me from scripture please....

[Steve W]

dk - I don't honestly think you can reasonably derive a doctrine as significant as this from Daniel 12:2, simply because the English translation says "many that sleep... shall awake".

The word 'many' here does not signify - 'not all' in any way. The word simply means - many people a mutitude - a massively large number. There is no way this infers a less than full 'proportion'.

The Hebrew word Rab: (Strongs)

in abundance, exceedingly, full, greatly,
By contracted from rabab; abundant (in quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality) -- (in) abound(-undance, -ant, -antly), exceedingly, full, great(-ly, man, one), increase, long (enough, (time)), (do, have) many(-ifold, things, a time), plenteous, populous....

This word can mean "full" - this would indicate the sum total of all that ever lived - the fullness of humanity.

Do you have other scriptures that prove only a partial resurrection please?

[RobLawson]

Isaiah 26 says that some people will rise from the dead and some won't, cp. v14 and v19.

John 5 says that all people will rise from the dead

As has been mentioned 'all' does not always mean 'all', it can just mean a lot.

Also the word graves in John 5 comes from a root word meaning remembrance. Isaiah 26 says about the Babylonians/Assyrians that 'therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

[Rose Hardy]

I'll do some work on this for you steveW. There are some passages which deal with this concept, but i need to check where they are. I think Romans might help, from memory, where it talks about those 'without the law'. i believe there is also a passage in Psalms which says that those who die without understanding (of God) are like the beasts which perish.

As I said, I need to spend some time on this to check out the various passages relevent, So I'll get back to the forum when ive done that. Give me a day or two. Thanks

[dkiversen]

Originally Posted by Steve W

The word 'many' here does not signify - 'not all' in any way. The word simply means - many people a mutitude - a massively large number. There is no way this infers a less than full 'proportion'.

The Hebrew word Rab: (Strongs)

in abundance, exceedingly, full, greatly,
By contracted from rabab; abundant (in quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality) -- (in) abound(-undance, -ant, -antly), exceedingly, full, great(-ly, man, one), increase, long (enough, (time)), (do, have) many(-ifold, things, a time), plenteous, populous....

This word can mean "full" - this would indicate the sum total of all that ever lived - the fullness of humanity.

The only example of rab being translated "full" in the KJV is Lamentations 1:1 "How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people!". So the speculation that rab might be used in the sense of "full total" or "full proportion" is false.

If "all" was the intended meaning then the word kol (Strong's entry 3606) would have been used; as it is in the phrase "all dominions shall serve and obey him" in Daniel 7:27.

So we're clearly being told that a multitude, rather than all, of the dead will be raised. This is consistent with the NT usage of pas in the sense of a multitude.

[Steve W]

(Rose - thanks - I look forward to your response)

dk - once again, a key doctrine based on the possible alternative translation of a single word. To be honest, I'd rather believe that when Im told that both the just and the unjust will be raised, it means just this - no more, no less. When I read that all the dead will come from their graves, I take it to mean just that - I have no earthly or heavenly reason to think otherwise, or to try to tyre lever a different interpretation of the word "all" into this. I think this is a massive red herring dreamt up by an old Christadelphian somewhere along the line in the 19th century, and I cannot begin to see the reason for it. The separation of the sheep and the goats at judgement, the gathering by the angels of people from one end of heaven and earth to the other, God the judge of all - it all leads to one conclusion and one conclusion only..

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." (Rev 20)

This speaks of a comprehensive resurrection and judgement - why would you want to think otherwise?

other passages...

"The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: ...The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation." (Luke 11)

"thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" (Romans 2:3)

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." (Jude 1)

Qu 1. I ask again please - where in the Bible does it say that people who have not had an opportunity to respond to God will not be resurrected? I cannot find this. (are you sure this is not conjecture / speculation?)

Qu 2. what will happen to those in the resurrection who are found to be "unjust", who will rise in the "resurrection of damnation", those who will experience "everlasting shame and contempt"....? (see post #11 above) what is their eternal state that their shame and contempt should be everlasting? Does this relate to Jesus' words about their worm not dying, and their flame not being extinguished?...

"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into [Gehenna]: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9) (or is the forum (God forbid) thinking that Jesus was conveying 'pagan' ideas here, of undying fires etc...?)