Why do we put ourselves in straight jackets?

[Chester Draws]

I have just been reading the minutes of a quarterly business meeting where there have been discussions, proposals and seconders concerning when the congregation should stand for hymn singing;

a) during the organists 'introductionary' first line;
b) after the first line has been played; or
c) as soon as the organist stikes the first note . . . .

Doesn't it strike you as Pharasiacal nonsense that we want to legislate for this.

CD

[Evangelion]

Well no, not in this case. Everyone needs to know when you stand for hymn singing, otherwise how on earth are you going to start singing at the same time? And everyone has their own preference about when they'd like to stand, so one method has to be agreed on otherwise nobody will know what they're supposed to do. That's just plain common sense.

Now, if they said they were going to make this a fellowship issue, that would be Pharisaical nonsense. But they're not, are they?

I know of a brother who once wrote to an ecclesia telling them exactly how to conduct the breaking of bread. He even told them what to say in their prayers for the bread and wine! What do you think of that?

[RobLawson]

presumably somebody had wanted to change when people stood up, else it wouldn't have been discussed.

if that's the case then in a way it's a good thing as the good thing about business meetings is that everyone gets to say their bit. the bad thing is that sometimes what people choose to say is petty and/or divisive. we should always be thankful that we don't have leaders telling us what to think.

[dkiversen]

Originally Posted by RobLawson

if that's the case then in a way it's a good thing as the good thing about business meetings is that everyone gets to say their bit. the bad thing is that sometimes what people choose to say is petty and/or divisive. we should always be thankful that we don't have leaders telling us what to think.

I was once at a business meeting where one of the reports was by a brother put in charge of the heating and windows reporting on the room temperatures and ventilation. Presumably there'd historically been some heated arguments between those who felt too hot and those who felt too cold or that it was too draughty.

I just see all these things as a reminder of our need for Jesus.

[Chester Draws]

All know when to start singing especially if led by an instrument.

All know they need to stand (if that's what they do) before the singing starts.

I just wonder what it is that we are trying to create or achieve by such legislation? Does it commend us to God?

[Evangelion]

Originally Posted by Chester Draws

All know when to start singing especially if led by an instrument.

All know they need to stand (if that's what they do) before the singing starts.

Yes, but at what point do they stand up? Is there a voluntary? Should the speaker announce the hymn and just let the organist/pianist start playing as soon as he/she is ready? Does the congregation get an introduction before the first line of the first verse?

It might sound like nit-picking but it serves a practical purpose.

I just wonder what it is that we are trying to create or achieve by such legislation? Does it commend us to God?

What people are trying to achieve is a service which runs smoothly so that we can all unite our voices in joyful praise to God and focus on Him rather than on ourselves.

What did you think of my example of the brother who once wrote to an ecclesia telling them exactly how to conduct the breaking of bread, even telling them what to say in their prayers for the bread and wine? How do you feel about that?

[Evangelion]

Originally Posted by dkiversen

I was once at a business meeting where one of the reports was by a brother put in charge of the heating and windows reporting on the room temperatures and ventilation. Presumably there'd historically been some heated arguments between those who felt too hot and those who felt too cold or that it was too draughty.

I just see all these things as a reminder of our need for Jesus.

I would see it as a need for automatic climate control.

[Chester Draws]

Originally Posted by Evangelion

Yes, but at what point do they stand up? Is there a voluntary?

It really just doesn’t matter at all when they stand up. Older or infirm ones might even sit if they like. Others might just prefer to sit. I’m afraid it does sound like nit picking, to me anyway! (remember I am speaking about legislating at what point in a 15 second organ introduction the congregation should stand)

It might be that we need to practise and become less like a classical orchestra that needs to be prodded by the conductor and more like a jazz group that read the signs from each of the other musicians?

How do other ecclesias manage without this legislation?

Originally Posted by Evangelion

What did you think of my example of the brother who once wrote to an ecclesia telling them exactly how to conduct the breaking of bread, even telling them what to say in their prayers for the bread and wine? How do you feel about that?

Well you might say that it would achieve a "smooth service". To me it sounds dire.
However there is detail on what should happen when we break bread a la 1 Cor. Do we do that?

If the brother was offering helpful advice to brethren who requested it, Great!

If he was prescribing a form of words to be used each time I would want to know where in scripture he got that idea from.

Was this in Australia? Funny things happen there!

[Chester Draws]

Originally Posted by dkiversen

Presumably there'd historically been some heated arguments between those who felt too hot and those who felt too cold or that it was too draughty.

Could you give us the exact temperature of the heated discussions, please?

[dkiversen]

Originally Posted by Evangelion

What did you think of my example of the brother who once wrote to an ecclesia telling them exactly how to conduct the breaking of bread, even telling them what to say in their prayers for the bread and wine? How do you feel about that?

I'm wondering if this was one of the brethren and sisters who exploit our desire not to offend by taking offence at everything that doesn't go their way.

[Rose Hardy]

Is this the point where we come out with the christadelphian jokes...?

How many christadelphians does it take to change a lightbulb?
CHANGE!!! What's CHANGE!!

or

How many christadelphians does it take to change a lightbulb?
One...and a quorum to discuss the cost effectiveness of it.

[Evangelion]

Originally Posted by Chester Draws

It really just doesn’t matter at all when they stand up. Older or infirm ones might even sit if they like. Others might just prefer to sit. I’m afraid it does sound like nit picking, to me anyway! (remember I am speaking about legislating at what point in a 15 second organ introduction the congregation should stand)

It might be that we need to practise and become less like a classical orchestra that needs to be prodded by the conductor and more like a jazz group that read the signs from each of the other musicians?

How do other ecclesias manage without this legislation?

In most of the ecclesias that I've belonged to, the order of service is spelled out in the constitution in general terms. Certain aspects are left to the presiding brother's discretion. The only problem is that occasionally the organist won't know when to start playing and the congregation won't know when to stand up. I have witnessed various mixups in my time.

For example, I have been in meetings where the organ started playing while the presiding brother was still speaking and I have been in meetings where the congregation was still sitting when the organist started playing because they didn't know when to rise. On both occasions people felt embarrassed and lost their train of thought; the meditative atmosphere necessary for the breaking of bread was disrupted.

Some ecclesias are good at doing it all on the fly; they allow the presiding brother to decide whether or not there will be a voluntary before the hymn or whether or not he will read out the first few lines of the hymn, or whether the congregation will rise after he announces the hymn or when the introduction plays, etc. However, some ecclesias have people who aren't so confident and so they find the need to be specific. It might sound rather petty, but who are we to judge? As long as they're not taking it too seriously, what's the harm?

Well you might say that it would achieve a "smooth service". To me it sounds dire. However there is detail on what should happen when we break bread a la 1 Cor. Do we do that?

If the brother was offering helpful advice to brethren who requested it, Great!

If he was prescribing a form of words to be used each time I would want to know where in scripture he got that idea from.

Was this in Australia? Funny things happen there!

No, this was in Corinth. The brother I am referring to is the apostle Paul. Do you think he was putting the Corinthians into straitjackets by telling them how to run their breaking of bread, even down to the exact wording of the prayer?

[Evangelion]

Originally Posted by dkiversen

I'm wondering if this was one of the brethren and sisters who exploit our desire not to offend by taking offence at everything that doesn't go their way.

It was the apostle Paul (see I Corinthians 11). Do you think he was exploiting his brethren and sisters' desire to offend by taking offence at everything that didn't go his way?

[Chester Draws]

Originally Posted by Evangelion

The brother I am referring to is the apostle Paul. Do you think he was putting the Corinthians into straitjackets by telling them how to run their breaking of bread, even down to the exact wording of the prayer?

What was the exact wording of the prayer? I don't see it.

Or any instruction on when to stand for a hymn for that matter.

He says they should wait for one another. Do we do that - rather we start bang on the dot of 11 or 3.30.

[David]

I can see the argument do we need to discuss small details, although having had to do to our school assemeblies, when people take there queue to stand from when the most extrovert stands up doesn't lead to a crisp start yo yhe hymn, but it seems people in the eclessia settle into a way of doing things,

On the other hand we have to be careful of condeming little rule as being pharasseical, Jesus said the pharasees should have been tithing the herbs, but shouldn't have left the weightier matters of the law undone. So it seems making rules when to stand up for a hymn is not really anything to get hot under the collar about, but not living faithfully would be something to worry about
D

[Chester Draws]

The NT seems so alive with activity and brethren 'getting on with it' whereas we can't agree (it was a split decision) amongst ourselves when we should stand for a hymn. You can imagine them on the Mount of Olives, arguing over such a matter!

[dkiversen]

Originally Posted by Evangelion

It was the apostle Paul (see I Corinthians 11). Do you think he was exploiting his brethren and sisters' desire to offend by taking offence at everything that didn't go his way?

There were genuine conflicts between Corinthian practice and Jesus's intent in establishing the breaking of bread, which Paul addresses with references back to what Jesus did and said. So this isn't about personal preferences.

The Apostle Paul's instructions are a lot less detailed than The Ecclesial Guide. The kinds of thing that sparked this thread are finer details still.

I've experienced conflict within a meeting over the precise point when the cloth should be taken off the emblems and whether and when it should be replaced, even though it's really there just to keep flies off. This included individuals threatening to leave the ecclesia if the cloth wasn't handled as they'd like - which is what I was thinking of.

Personally I find presiding the most stressful task in the ecclesia having experienced this kind of reaction to detailed procedure not being exactly right in the eyes of some.

[Evangelion]

Originally Posted by Chester Draws

What was the exact wording of the prayer? I don't see it.

Sorry, my mistake. I was thinking of the Didache.

Or any instruction on when to stand for a hymn for that matter.

Correct. Presumably Paul does't want anyone singing at the memorial! :eek:

He says they should wait for one another. Do we do that - rather we start bang on the dot of 11 or 3.30.

I always thought he meant "wait your turn to take the emblems."

But I think you see my point now.

[Evangelion]

Originally Posted by dkiversen

There were genuine conflicts between Corinthian practice and Jesus's intent in establishing the breaking of bread, which Paul addresses with references back to what Jesus did and said. So this isn't about personal preferences.

The Apostle Paul's instructions are a lot less detailed than The Ecclesial Guide. The kinds of thing that sparked this thread are finer details still.

Yes, but he still sent them specific instructions about the order of service. My point is that we're not doing anything wrong by being specific about our practices. But we do go wrong when we focus too much on the method and not enough on the meaning.

I've experienced conflict within a meeting over the precise point when the cloth should be taken off the emblems and whether and when it should be replaced, even though it's really there just to keep flies off. This included individuals threatening to leave the ecclesia if the cloth wasn't handled as they'd like - which is what I was thinking of.

Well, that's just ridiculous.

Personally I find presiding the most stressful task in the ecclesia having experienced this kind of reaction to detailed procedure not being exactly right in the eyes of some.

I've always found presiding the most difficult job. Exhorting is much easier.

[Evangelion]

Originally Posted by Chester Draws

The NT seems so alive with activity and brethren 'getting on with it' whereas we can't agree (it was a split decision) amongst ourselves when we should stand for a hymn. You can imagine them on the Mount of Olives, arguing over such a matter!

You think that's bad? I can imagine the disciples arguing amongst each other during the Last Supper.

Which is exactly what they did:

Luke 22:24
A dispute also started among them over which of them was to be regarded as the greatest.

And that's with the betrayal only hours away!