Appropriate Attire...

[Nat]

One issue that came up at a recent youth weekend was what clothes are appropriate to wear to the memorial service, and to other talks also...

Some arguments were based around the inner mind set being more important than external clothing, and others thought a suit and tie was the minimum acceptable.

What does everyone think?

Is it different for baptised / non-baptised?

Is it different for young and old?

[Jon Davies]

I think on this subject we do well to remember that God looks on the heart (1 Sam 16 vs. 17). Personally by wearing smart clothing it is part of my mental preperation. If I was to go to a funeral or a wedding I would wear smart clothes. The memorial service is both of these. I go to meet Christ at the altar and He is my future King.

[Matt B]

To pick up on one of your questions Nat, yes it is different for baptised/unbaptised. I believe that we have a different set of standards as baptised members of God's family, from unbaptised people. I would never say that an unbaptised person should have to wear different dress, just that there are different obligations.

To slip something in about the other parts of your post. Some items of clothing are unacceptable. Sisters for instance ought to dress modestly, which means no short skirts or plunging necklines for instance. We also shouldn't be bringing anything of the world in to our lives, so t-shirts with band names etc. are a definite no-no as well, not just at the meeting but at all times.

Regarding the inner mindset, I think that's a bit of a cop out. What is going on in your mind will come out in what you wear, if you are living and thinking soberly and with restraint that will be obvious in your actions and your dress. It is right to say that it is not what's on the outside that is important, and that God looks at the heart, but the people we meet in the world, or the visitors we have at our meetings can't see inside us, so what we are on the outside needs to be a reflection of how we are inside.

That's how I see it anyway.

[Sam Green]

I agree with Matt, there are some things that it's definitely not appropriate to wear to the meeting. For sisters i guess it's more obvious, but that doesn't mean the brothers don't have to think about what they wear as well.

At my baptismal interview when we discussed the sorts of clothing it would be appropriate for me, as a sister, to wear i was surprised to hear the interviewing brother and the sister who witnessed it say that they'd be happy to see me at the meeting in jeans and a t-shirt if i was there in the right frame of mind and worshipping God sincerely. I never have worn jeans and a t-shirt to the meeting, but the one occasion i did wear smart trousers (because i got up late and didn't have time to iron a skirt) i got told that i shouldn't wear trousers, though lots of other sisters at my meeting have done in the past and no-one's ever said anything to them as far as i know. So i have no idea about that.

Ultimately, it's our heart and our frame of mind that matters to God, but that doesn't mean we don't have to make an effort. We dress up to impress people in the world on job interviews etc or when we go on a date. So then how much more should we make an effort to come before our Almighty Father.

[jimmievossandad]

You probably can't hold it against the people at your meeting, Sam
As it's down to opinion, the people who interviewed you expressed the opinion they would be happy, but they obviously hadn't thought that some people might not be happy with your wearing of trousers.

As far as my dress goes, as a brother i choose to look smart on a sunday, but i very rarely wear a suit anymore, simply becuase i find it less comfortable, and feel it can distract other people do too - ever had the comment "Ooh, you look smart today!"? well, that makes me think that it is a distraction to others, if people are sitting there thinking about how my suit looks nice.

I guess, just as it is possible to under-dress, it is possible to over-dress too.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Sam Green

We dress up to impress people in the world on job interviews etc or when we go on a date. So then how much more should we make an effort to come before our Almighty Father.

I agree, although people we dress up for in the world, (ie for a job interview), dont have the benefit of being able to see whats in our hearts, perhaps that is what some might argue...

[Sam Green]

Originally Posted by jimmievossandad

You probably can't hold it against the people at your meeting, Sam
As it's down to opinion, the people who interviewed you expressed the opinion they would be happy, but they obviously hadn't thought that some people might not be happy with your wearing of trousers.

As far as my dress goes, as a brother i choose to look smart on a sunday, but i very rarely wear a suit anymore, simply becuase i find it less comfortable, and feel it can distract other people do too - ever had the comment "Ooh, you look smart today!"? well, that makes me think that it is a distraction to others, if people are sitting there thinking about how my suit looks nice.

I guess, just as it is possible to under-dress, it is possible to over-dress too.

I don't hold it against people at my meeting at all, i guess i was just a little confused as to why i was singled out from amongst the 4 other sisters wearing trousers that morning and who continue to do so. I did get a bit upset about it, but decided that all i could do was apologise and make sure that the night before the meetings i have a skirt ironed and ready. Which is what i do now to avoid offending anyone else in the future, i always wear a skirt to all meetings now.

You're right about the over-dressing thing. Sometimes i see people who look super smart and it does distract me a bit.

Originally Posted by Nat

I agree, although people we dress up for in the world, (ie for a job interview), dont have the benefit of being able to see whats in our hearts, perhaps that is what some might argue...

Yeah, i see your point, but just because someone can see inside our hearts doesn't mean we can stop making an effort with appearance. The way we dress should reflect the occasion - i'd feel completely wrong turning up to the meeting in something i'd wear to go bowling in for instance or what i'd wear to play hockey on the weekends. Because the meeting is something different to everything else i do all week, it requires a different style of dress.

Does that make any sense at all?

[Gem]

ive had so many talks about this with people. and i think it comes down to offending people. lot of people say God looks on the heart not on the outward appearance so they wear jeans and t`shirts and that, but then at the same time, other people, like the older brethren and sisters at meetings get really offended by it because thy have always dressed smartly and they have different views on it.
basically i think its ok to wear what you want really as long as it within reason but then if someone, anyone, is affended by it and you know it, then your heart isnt in the right place.i think that girls wearing skirts is just a tradition, cuz it doesnt say we have to wear one but in the olden days lol most girls did wear skirts everywhere.i think it is nice to dress smart though, shows we make an effort for God, even if its the heart he looks at.

[Matt Smith]

Originally Posted by Jon Davies

Skirts are undoubtedly a tradition but they are, culturally in England, something only women wear (obvious exception is kilts in Scotland). By a sister wearing a skirt she is wearing a feminine garment and is in no way crossing the gender lines. This, I believe shows a sister's mindset, appreciating that she is a sister and is in no way usurping the role of a brother. From my limited personal experience, the sister's striving to wear trousers are often the ones acting against how Scripture teaches they should.

A nice pair of dress slacks goes over well. Some of the sisters in our ecclesia wear those on a regular basis. They cover everything and do not show off their figure. My wife, on the other hand, prefers a skirt.

In Arizona, the brethren frequently skip the jacket, and often a tie, but they still wear dress pants and a nice shirt. I skip the jacket completely and wear a tie about half the time.

Should we expect our unbaptised to dress exactly as we do? No, but we should expect them to show respect for the brethren & sisters in the way that they do dress. As has been said before (Matt B, I think), the attitude of mind comes out in the clothes (as well as other ways) and young people are notorious for their attitude...

[peteward]

Yes, God looks on the inside, so if our hearts are right it doesn't matter what's on the outside. However, I agree with others here that this isn't the end of the story.

Firstly, unbaptised people have no need to dress up or to particularly consider what they're wearing. I'd rather someone be at a meeting listening to the truth than not there just because they won't wear a suit or dress. Better to be there in shorts and t-shirt than not there at all. In the same way, I'd rather they be there and listening over a loudspeaker in the back room than not there at all. We need to be very flexible when it comes to the unbaptised, and put as few blocks in their way as possible.

When baptised, things do change somewhat. However, I think that each person's view of what's acceptable is framed by their daily lives. Those who wear (or wore!) a suit to work each day will tend to wear one at the meetings. Those who normally dress down or even wear overalls etc at work may tend not to dress up for meetings (and may not even have a suit to wear). As long as they're not deliberately "under-dressing" to make a point I don't think it matters. One benefit of us wearing a range of clothes at a meeting is that visiting bre&sis, plus unbaptised people, can fit in whatever they're wearing. Many visitors on holiday can't carry a suit or a full change of clothes just for Sunday and it would be sad if they felt they couldn't attend just because of that, so it's good when they can blend in unobtrusively.

Of course, all this is probably only relevant in the more prosperous areas of the world. In some areas people have little choice of clothing. It would be wrong for us to say that they're under-dressed in such circumstances. It's down to attitude again.

So I would say, if we wear clothing that is appropriate to us based on our view of what's relevant in our normal lives, then that should be acceptable. If we deliberately dress up or dress down it could reflect an "interesting" attitude.

As for sisters wearing trousers, I see no problem with that. Many women wear trousers all the time. They certainly don't indicate a desire to cross-dress. More of a problem are those who wear ultra-decorative hats that don't seem to be in keeping with the original purpose of headcoverings!

But having said all that, what we wear is personal and should not be judged by others except in the most excessive cases where things are getting distracting. We should not be judging others' service to God. Let us set the example we think is appropriate, and let others decide for themselves.

[jimmievossandad]

Originally Posted by peteward

...what we wear is personal and should not be judged by others except in the most excessive cases where things are getting distracting. We should not be judging others' service to God. Let us set the example we think is appropriate, and let others decide for themselves.

Nice summary. Thanks Pete.

[RichLeamington]

For reference I tend to wear smart dark trousers (not jeans) and a short sleeved 'work' shirt (not t-shirt). I wear this because it looks smart (or as smart as I can look!) and is still comfortable. I hate ties!

I think that Gem hits the nail on the head. Its a case of whether or not we offend people, or indeed God. Now people can be fussy so I think it is more important that we do not offend God. Some people may get offended if you do not wear a suit but that doesn't mean God would mind if you didn't.

Interestingly I went to an ecclesia on the Gold Coast in Australia. The brothers there wore 'dress' shirts with surfer shorts and flip-flops (thongs) and some of the sisters wore trousers. Also my brother (blood and spiritual brother!) wears jeans and a sweatshirt. I think it is a bit scruffy but at the end of the day that's between him and God as no-one at Rugby seems to mind.

[pontingishere]

It does come down to not offending others; however I do feel that we ourselves must make sure we don’t get offended by the actions of our brethren and sister. If we don’t get offended by others because we are judging others then others cannot offend us. We can easily get used to our comfort zone with in the meeting. There is nothing wrong with smart clothing as long as it is for the right reasons, but surely this is the case for other clothing as long it is for the right reasons.

However I am strongly against telling others what to wear, it can have a very negative effect on people, and I have spoken to people on all scales of the many Christadelphians traditions (traditional, happy clappy, etc) I don’t like these names to associate certain types of groups but it just shows the difference of groups and opinions among our community.

I feel that if a brother or sister is happy to break bread on the Sunday in a normal t-shirt and jeans, we should not tell them that they are in the wrong. I have been told by many who are in this situation that they respond in the manner “I am in the presence of God 24/7 and my heart and mind is with God.

Who am I to Judge differently? Or question their motives? Though we do get situations where judgements are made and we think we know what is going on in another person’s heart or mind. I just want to say that I attend Kettering meeting, I wear shirt and smart trousers and no tie, however when I attend other meetings I wear a Tie, though at other meetings I wear a plan t-shirt – Why?

Firstly I don’t want to offend others, so I wear whatever that is normal to that ecclesia I am visiting. It would cause an offense if I were to wear a tie at some meetings but would cause an offense if I didn’t at others. I have to be honest I don’t really care what I wear, ultimately my heart is NOT pure, and it is something which I feel is more important to improve than the clothes that I am wearing.

Secondly I will do whatever that will make my brethren and sisters happy, because I love them. Afterall I hope to spend all eternity with my brethren and sisters in God kingdom. We might not understand at first why others act in the way they do though must not assume the negative but rather consider the positive, we should try to understand the reasons which are behind the actions of our brethren and sisters.

[samtheboy]

Originally Posted by pontingishere

However I am strongly against telling others what to wear, it can have a very negative effect on people

QFT (for those of you who don't know this acronym - "Quoted for truth")

I think that it all comes down to "offence". Now this word really is a strong word and shouldn't be taken lightly. I think that many people use it too often, and really actually mean "dislike".

If what someone is wearing is causing you to become unfocused and completely distracted, then by all means you should politely tell them that that is the case and not just say "you shouldn't wear that". We are told that we shouldn't be a stumbling block for others, so if what we are wearing is GENUINELY a stumbling block, then we should accept that graciously.

On the other hand, if we just don't like the fact that someone is wearing something for personal reasons, then that shouldn't be raised as an issue!

I can't entertain the idea that women wearing trousers shows that they are cross dressing, as how many women wear a pair of trousers during the week, and wear something else on a Sunday "to please God" - the same with men and highly polished shoes, suits and ties.

We NEED to be careful about our reasoning for doing so - is it because it makes us better at worshipping God or because we want to do it for ourselves?

If we're not careful then this can happen!

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
(Mat 23:27)

[peteward]

Originally Posted by samtheboy

QFT (for those of you who don't know this acronym - "Quoted for truth")

I think that it all comes down to "offence". Now this word really is a strong word and shouldn't be taken lightly. I think that many people use it too often, and really actually mean "dislike".

If what someone is wearing is causing you to become unfocused and completely distracted, then by all means you should politely tell them that that is the case and not just say "you shouldn't wear that". We are told that we shouldn't be a stumbling block for others, so if what we are wearing is GENUINELY a stumbling block, then we should accept that graciously.

On the other hand, if we just don't like the fact that someone is wearing something for personal reasons, then that shouldn't be raised as an issue!

I can't entertain the idea that women wearing trousers shows that they are cross dressing, as how many women wear a pair of trousers during the week, and wear something else on a Sunday "to please God" - the same with men and highly polished shoes, suits and ties.

We NEED to be careful about our reasoning for doing so - is it because it makes us better at worshipping God or because we want to do it for ourselves?

If we're not careful then this can happen!

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
(Mat 23:27)

Your point about "offence" is very true. The Biblical meaning of the word is "cause to stumble", ie. affect our walk to the Kingdom. The current meaning of the word is more like "I don't like it", as you point out, Sam. We need to be careful to distinguish the two.

[Abel from Downunder]

Originally Posted by samtheboy

QFT (for those of you who don't know this acronym - "Quoted for truth")

I think that it all comes down to "offence". Now this word really is a strong word and shouldn't be taken lightly. I think that many people use it too often, and really actually mean "dislike".

If what someone is wearing is causing you to become unfocused and completely distracted, then by all means you should politely tell them that that is the case and not just say "you shouldn't wear that". We are told that we shouldn't be a stumbling block for others, so if what we are wearing is GENUINELY a stumbling block, then we should accept that graciously.

On the other hand, if we just don't like the fact that someone is wearing something for personal reasons, then that shouldn't be raised as an issue!

I can't entertain the idea that women wearing trousers shows that they are cross dressing, as how many women wear a pair of trousers during the week, and wear something else on a Sunday "to please God" - the same with men and highly polished shoes, suits and ties.

We NEED to be careful about our reasoning for doing so - is it because it makes us better at worshiping God or because we want to do it for ourselves?

If we're not careful then this can happen!

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
(Mat 23:27)

I totally agree with Samtheboy

People just throw around the use of the word offence. Is it really going to stop you from being in the kingdom because someone else is not going to wear a tie because you want him to? No is the obvious answer, and if it is then maybe it is necessary for that person that is 'offended' (actually just dislikes) to realize that it is not important.

There are far more important things than trying to set a minimum benchmark bar of clothing standards. How about love... people instead need to focus on love instead of trying to force other people to wear what they consider best. Then there would not be any "offence". It is not even a command by God to wear the traditional job interview attire. Suits and ties and the prohibition of sisters wearing pants is a tradition that was based on a personal opinion of what the best is.

Everyone's best is different, and it is between them and God not you and them. If not wearing a tie is slack in their mind then they should wear a tie, but if wearing a nice shirt and some jeans at ecclesial events is their best then that is fine. It comes down to personal conscience; people with a different conscience should not judge others for not having the same conscience as them. If the person who wears jeans is wearing what he considers best for God and the person who wears a suit and tie is wearing what he considers best for God then they are both in the right. It is about your attitude before God, not how you conform to those around you, just because that is the way things have been done for the past 100years.

Now we should not flaunt our freedom in Christ to wear whatever we want that is fine before God by purposely annoying someone who has an issue with your best. But that person that has an issue needs to realise how petty it is and look at the big picture. Instead of judging the person for wearing jeans, how about inviting him around for a meal instead of telling him he must wear business suit pants tie and polished shoes.

I know that some interested young people have been turned away because they were told their attire was not sufficient. Those people have been lost most probably forever. The focus needs to be on love not keeping the man instituted standards

Now what I am saying about respecting others opinions has a very solid scriptural base

"As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God..."

(Romans 14:1-10, ESV)

Just for the record I like to wear a tie and shirt to memorial meetings, but do not judge those who wear suits or those who wear no tie. As for sisters I believe it is fine for them to wear pants, some people do not agree because they were brought up to believe it is wrong. Really though what is the basis of this?

If sisters feel more comfortable before God wearing pants they should not be banned from wearing pants (as long as they are modest), but there is also nothing wrong with choosing not to wear pants. The important thing is that we must not try to force our convictions about clothing upon others. Things that are not defined by the bible come down to personal convictions based on our conscience.

In fact God clearly shows that we are not to look on external appearance. We should only judge someone by their personality and actions not wether they wear the 'right' clothes.

"...But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart..." (1 Samuel 16:7, NIV)

So instead when one defines appropriate attire, i believe it should be, what is right in your mind before God. This is the only way because the Bible does not command how we should dress except for modesty.

In reference to Matt B, I think is a bit hasty to say the inner mindset is a copout. It is a copout if people don't care what they wear, certainly and then claim it is their conscience. But how are we to know their mindset and who are we to judge what their conscience should be in regard to clothes?
"...Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls..." (Romans 14:4, ESV) the Bible does not define the benchmark for clothing, so why do we seek to introduce our benchmark, and if people are below our personal benchmark we get annoyed. How can you define the best?

If we say what would you wear to a job interview.... yeah true you may wear a suit for the job interview. For job interviews it is actually considered over the top wearing a suit in the jobs I have applied for, instead a nice shirt and tie suffices. Even so we should not be looking to the world as a benchmark for clothing, consider the following words "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind" (Romans 12:2, NIV) Our focus should be on God as our benchmark, straining for absolute excellence by his standards, which involves a renewing of your mind not your wardrobe. The world may define formal attire as important but does your conscience before God?

People can be slack, yes... but it is very hard to judge and also it is far more important for us to take a loving and gentle approach to those who are (as defined by some) slack by trying to earn their respect instead of trying to make them conform to our personal opinion. Modesty is the only thing we can enforce. Man instituted rules should not take precedence over God's commandments. According to Jesus love is the most important and overriding commandment, if the priest in David's day had been a stickler for rules then David would have starved to death. Instead the priest considered Gods characteristics of love and mercy and realised that is more important that a human lives than for the shewbread law to be kept.

Now i hope these thoughts have provided some insight.

[hobbs]

Originally Posted by Abel from Downunder

I totally agree with Samtheboy

In fact God clearly shows that we are not to look on external appearance. We should only judge someone by their personality and actions not wether they wear the 'right' clothes.

"...But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart..." (1 Samuel 16:7, NIV).

this is interesting, but why in verse 12 does the writer tell us this detail?

So he sent and had him brought in. He was glowing with health and had a fine appearance and handsome features.
Then the LORD said, "Rise and anoint him; this is the one."

and slightly off topic

and why in the next chapter and verse 28 does Eliab say

I know how conceited you are and how wicked your heart is; you came down only to watch the battle."

back to the topic

for the record, I generally wear Jeans and a shirt / jumper whether I am stewarding, listening, speaking or teaching and find the "show dressing" (big hats, fancy frocks, shiny suits) somewhat distracting, not that i would ever complain, as it is largely irrelevant what someone looks like.

God knows what we are and Joel 2:12-13 sums it up for me

Even now," declares the LORD,
"return to me with all your heart,
with fasting and weeping and mourning."

Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the LORD your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
and he relents from sending calamity.

[hobbs]

Originally Posted by Abel from Downunder

If sisters feel more comfortable before God wearing pants they should not be banned from wearing pants (as long as they are modest), but there is also nothing wrong with choosing not to wear pants.

this line, in a British context still makes me smile

[Polly]

Originally Posted by Nat

I agree, although people we dress up for in the world, (ie for a job interview), dont have the benefit of being able to see whats in our hearts, perhaps that is what some might argue...

Because God is always with us, is all powerful and almighty, at all times and in all places, I believe we do best to honor him 24/7, 365. To dress up only on certain Christadelphian occasions such as for the meeting may certainly help people, invoking in them a sense of dignity, it makes no difference to me what people wear.
God is not a human. I would dress up when meeting humans at special functions such as meeting the Queen. She would expect it. I believe God doesn't require me to dress up for Him, but He requires that how I dress doesn't cause offence to my brethren & sisters. The memorial meeting is special and so also is every minute of every day.

It just seems to me that the whole dressing up thing is based upon what HUMANS expect for secular HUMAN-based gatherings, such as job interviews, working in an office and meeting the Queen. I wonder where the 'Sunday Best' idea came from? Maybe from the Churches trying to compartmentalise God into just 1 day of the week?

The logic of dressing up for God eludes me - but I completely understand the logic of dressing up for our brethren & sisters, because nothing ought to distract them from focusing on their worship.

Let's always be aware of the danger of judging others' motives by their outward appearance - see James 2:1-5. Let us rather 'tarry one for another' 1 Cor 11:33 in the spirit of meekness and love, always putting others ahead of ourselves.

[peteward]

Originally Posted by Polly

...It just seems to me that the whole dressing up thing is based upon what HUMANS expect for secular HUMAN-based gatherings, such as job interviews, working in an office and meeting the Queen. I wonder where the 'Sunday Best' idea came from? Maybe from the Churches trying to compartmentalise God into just 1 day of the week?

Good point, Polly. Some churches still refer to Sunday as the "sabbath". It isn't and never has been. We meet on the first day of the week, not the seventh, and so the restrictions of the sabbath do not apply to us in that way.

How they do apply, of course, is in the NT implications: we no longer rest from our work on the 7th day, but every day. Our whole week is spent in God's service, not just 1 day/week. Thus the only one of the 10 commandments that is not applicable to us now is the one where in fact it becomes even more intensely applied.

So Polly's point is very relevant. Some say, "You would dress up for the Queen, so why not for God?" It's a good idea to stop and think whether God wants us to dress up. As with points made earlier, it really comes down to our hearts. If we feel it is necessary to dress up when approaching God then we should. If we don't then we shouldn't (though without upsetting others). Some will say that the heart is manifest in our external appearance while others see no such link. How often "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind" is applicable!