Puzzled - from whence came sinful flesh.

[Insearchof]

Hi, In the many posts that I have been reading through, I see a number of
references to Sinful flesh, I would like to ask the Forum members for their views on what it is, and where it came from in light of the quoted scriptures,
the OT ones from Youngs Literal Translation and the NT from KJV.
Gen 1:26 And God saith, `Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that is creeping on the earth.'
Gen 1:27 And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.
Gen 1:28 And God blesseth them, and God saith to them, `Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over every living thing that is creeping upon the earth.'

Gen 1:31 And God seeth all that He hath done, and lo, very good; and there is an evening, and there is a morning--day the sixth.

Rom 14:14 I have known, and am persuaded, in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself, except to him who is reckoning anything to be unclean--to that one it is unclean;
Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Erik.

[glimmer]

Originally Posted by Insearchof

Hi, In the many posts that I have been reading through, I see a number of references to Sinful flesh, I would like to ask the Forum members for their views on what it is, and where it came from in light of the quoted scriptures, the OT ones from Youngs Literal Translation and the NT from KJV.Gen 1:26 And God saith, `Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that is creeping on the earth.' Gen 1:27 And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them. Gen 1:28 And God blesseth them, and God saith to them, `Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over every living thing that is creeping upon the earth.' Gen 1:31 And God seeth all that He hath done, and lo, very good; and there is an evening, and there is a morning--day the sixth.

Hi Erik, all these scriptures you quote from Genesis are PRIOR to the "fall of Adam", and describe man in his "pre-sin" state (for lack of a better word). Once Adam disobeyed God he became a mortal man with a sinful nature, prone to sin.

Rom 14:14 I have known, and am persuaded, in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean of itself, except to him who is reckoning anything to be unclean--to that one it is unclean;

This is referring to eating of animals which were considered "unclean" in the OT. It has nothing to do with the "sinful flesh" of man.

Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an ulawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. Erik.

Again, this is not referring to the sinful flesh of man, but rather it is God's way of telling the Jewish Christians that He accepts Gentile believers as well as Jewish believers. Gentiles are not to be considered "unclean" if they become believers in Jesus Christ.

[BDW]

Basically by "sinful flesh" we mean a nature that just has a bias to sin. Thus Jesus had this nature but overcame it providing a way for others to do likewise by identifying with him. It seems fairly clear and logical to me. Seems to make sense that we have some bias to sin just as we have a drive to eat, drink, etcetera.

It seems that when man broke the commandment in Eden from then on he became a dying creature. This dying nature was the result of sin. "The wages of sin is death..." therefore we all die. Because Christ had the nature he could die but because he didn't sin he didn't deserve the wages and therefore God's righteousness compelled Him to raise Christ from the grave.

Just my thoughts

[Insearchof]

Thank you Mr glimmer & BDW, for your replies, I will reply later when hopefully there will
have been more replies.

[Insearchof]

Hi, I had hoped that more answers to my question on where sinful Nature came from,
I know from the time I went to Church the believed in it, calling it Original Sin.
From the two replies received, moreso the one from mr. glimmer it appears that you also
hold to that church teaching.
We know that Dr J Thomas did not and also R.Roberts because Antipas quoted from them
both in Post 22 in the Adam & Eve thread, where they had written there had been no
Physical change.
Quotes copied and Pasted here . Erik.
I quote 2 of his writings whilst a Christadelphian the last one when he was not with those under the BASF, and one from R.R before he drew up the BASF.
Reply to Inquirer— ( Lancelot Burrus.) Herald of the Kingdom. ( July 1855) Vol.5. Page 159)
“ Death and corruption then, with reproduction, is a fundamental Law of the physical system of
the six days …. From these premises it will be seen that we dissent from our correspondent’s
notion that all creation became corrupt, by which we understand him to mean “ constitutionally
impreganated with corruptibility at the fall.” We believe that the change was moral not physical.
———————————————————————————————————————
Robert Roberts — to ( David Handley) The Ambassador of the Coming Age.( March 1869).
( Page 85). “ Our friend imagines there was a change in the nature of Adam when he became disobedient. There is no evidence of this whatsoever …. There was a change in Adam’s relation to his Maker, but not in the nature of his organisation.”
———————————————————————————————————————
Dr. Thomas. — to ( Bro Coffman.) The Dr’s last ( un-finished letter). ( Feb. 1871.)
“ Divine Power made spirit out of the dust of the ground, and called it Man. He has so made or
organized it, that if not further interfered with by His power, it may pass away. This is called flesh, or spirit which passeth away; and under ordinary conditions, cometh not again.”
——————————————————————————————————————–

[Flappie]

Are you (Insearchof), Antipas and Inquirer75 all the same person?

[Insearchof]

Flappie. Why would you think that ? I am sure you would have seen two of us on the
Forum at the same time, had you been on yourself during the Daytime (UK).
I will admit to having a strong bond with them, having been on a number of Christadelphian forums where they have also been ie -Bible Building Blocks, Bible Truth Alive, Bible Truth Discussion, Christadelphianbeliefsdebate, Open Bible Forum, & Community Belief Net, Plus some CoGAF forums.
If you are not willing to try to answer my question and would sooner cast doubt on me
and my aim to find where the Truth is to be found, then I will leave you with the thought
what if I offend one of the little one who seeks to come to Christ. MATT 18:6.
Rose (Hardy) I said to you I might not last a week, am I a prophet and do not Know it.
No dear I am not, but I do know that Christadelphians do not like answering questions
on their beliefs, Moreso those of the Central Fellowship, who claim to hold the BASF, but
who other Groups say should not be called Christadelphians, because they were not
Founded on the BASF, Temperence Hall where, Suffolk Street where not, when they
came together as Central fellowship, they could not agree on accepting the BASF so
came together under the Cooper/ Carter ammendum, causing many of the T.H members
and the Bereans who had gone back to T.H. under BASF to leave and form the OLD PATHS fellowship. I do not hold the BASF to be Bible Truth so considered that the CENTRAL may be holding it, Sadly it would appear not to be.
Thank you all for the Short time I have been Given here with you on this Forum, I shall
return to one of the above mentioned, where there are a number of Posters who delight
in answering questions. Thank you all again. Erik.

[Rose Hardy]

Hi Insearchof

Just to say. Don't give up just because you havent had answers straight away. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is very busy, and can't always reply immediately. also I like to look at a point or question and go away and think about it, or do a little study before replying. I'm sure others are the same.

Please have a little patience before giving up.

Thanks

[Insearchof]

Dear Rose, thank you for your kind reply, request.
I have logged in again solely to say to you.
It was not the lack of answers, which made my mind up to leave the forum, it was the
mistrust of my posts by Flappie. Continue to search the scriptures dear for it is in them
alone you will find Life Eternal. Erik.
Ps. James ( Inquirer ) sends his best wishes to you and would love to see you on the
Christadelphian Forum - Bible Building Blocks.

[Rose Hardy]

I don't know if you'll get to read this Insearchof, but I'm sure flappie wasnt casting doubt on your integrity, or mistrusting you in any way. he was just curious - as, I have to admit myself, yours, Inquirer's and Antipas's posts read in a very similar way, were set out in a similar way.

There was certainly no attempt to cast aspertions in your direction, just an honest curiosity about the similarity between your posts.

Again, I ask, please don't be so quick to judge the whole forum, especially as it was based on a simple misunderstanding. As glimmer has already said in another thread, written posts like this are easily misunderstood, as you can't see the facial expressions, or hear the tone of the person speaking. I always assume the post is meant in the nicest way - and indeed, 99.9999% of the time this is the case.

[Flappie]

Yes, my apologies if I have upset you, it's just that the sort of questions you ask and the way you phrase things is almost identical.

As for the sinful nature question, we were born with it.

[Peter]

I know Romans 8:7 is translated "in the likeness of sinful flesh". However I think the use of the word "sinful" throws us a little. By its construction it seems to carry the idea of "full of sin". Dictionary definitions carry the meanings wrong, iniquitous, wicked. This probably gives a heavier meaning to the word than that intended. Especially since words like wicked infer a real maliciousness.
The Greek word translated "sinful" is Hamartia meaning "missing the mark".
I feel that the word in Romans 8 would be better translated "sinning" so that it is saying "Jesus was born in the likeness of sinning flesh (or flesh that sins)"

[steveyb3]

John Carter in his book, "The Letter to the Romans" had some helpful points on this I feel. He said Jesus was born in the likeness of sinful flesh as he had the desires but didn't give in.

Thus I believe, he was only in the likeness of sinful flesh and not the fulness of sinful flesh.

[Insearchof]

Thank you Peter and Steve for your posts, I would be more inclined to agree with you
both, but I also know that your posts will not be well received by a large number of Christadelphians.

[glimmer]

Originally Posted by Insearchof

Thank you Peter and Steve for your posts, I would be more inclined to agree with you both, but I also know that your posts will not be well received by a large number of Christadelphians.

Why not?

[steveyb3]

Because some people (clean flesh) think it is insulting Jesus when we say he had internal desires and struggled against them.

[Insearchof]

Steve, That is one very good reason, but there is also some Christadelphians that Belief
that Christ was Full of Sin, had to have the Holy Spirit to over come his flesh, and that
when Christ died it was the devil that hung there dead.

[Rose Hardy]

Originally Posted by steveyb3

Because some people (clean flesh) think it is insulting Jesus when we say he had internal desires and struggled against them.

Personally, I think it insulting to Jesus to suggest that he didnt really have to fight to overcome his adamic nature.
Jesus spent his whole life fighting temptation, just as we do. In the garden of gethsemene the struggle was so great that he sweat as it were great drops of blood. For people to say that he had some sort of 'unfair' advantage over us is to minimise the effort and sacrifice Jesus went through on our behalf. He was tempted, like as we are, yet without sin.
Its one of the things I hate about the 'doctine' of the trinity - it SO misses the point!

Steve, That is one very good reason, but there is also some Christadelphians that Belief
that Christ was Full of Sin, had to have the Holy Spirit to over come his flesh, and that
when Christ died it was the devil that hung there dead.

As far as I can see, insearchof, this is the same mistaken belief as the other I've just commented on. - that Jesus didnt really have to work to overcome temptation, that the Holy Spirit gave him an advantage we don't have. Again, this negates the huge effort Jesus went through on our behalf.
It seems to be a fairly rare mistake to make in the brethren and sisters I know though.

[Insearchof]

Rose, there is talk on this thread of Clean Flesh and Un-Clean Flesh, but scripture tells
us the is but one flesh of man.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

[steveyb3]

If I'm not mistaken, "the devil hung there dead" is a quote from Brother A D Norris. The flesh (the devil) was destroyed on the cross. I see no problem with this terminology. He was not saying Jesus' actions were of the devil, merely that Jesus' flesh (the devil) was hanging on the cross, dead.