Do You Talk To Jesus?

[Peter]

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[Steve W]

Peter. I am glad we agree on the Holy Spirit - but you know, the Holy Spirit does not share the Temple of a believers life / body with the devil! this is not possible. you say: "I would love you to be able to see that your greatest enemy resides in you - It is sin in you, It is the carnal mind." talking of the devil.

But the Lord does not fellowship with the devil within us. I do not have the devil in me!!! God forbid.

"the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." (1 Cor 10:20)

Are you saying that you have the devil in you, and the Holy Spirit?

[Peter]

"the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." (1 Cor 10:20)

Steve, I think this is the wrong quote to prove this point.
The previous verse says in effect they arte nothing
1Cr 10:19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything?
These demons are the same "so-called" gods that Paul spoke about a few chapters earlier but he says there is only one God.
1Cr 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
1Cr 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom [are] all things, and through whom we [live].
In ancient paganism demoms were demi-gods. And Paul makes it clear they don't really exist although they can exist in the minds of humans who think they exist. There are few actual references to demons in NT. Most of the time the verb meaning to be demon-possessed is used. Now I am suggesting to you that the expression has more to do with mental illness plus some other illnesses whose cause is unknown.
The ancient Greek δαίμων daimōn is a word for "spirit" or "divine power", much like the Latin genius. usually anglicized as either daemon or daimon rather than demon. However there is clearly a connection between so-called demons and mental illness as evidenced by the account of Legion where afterwards he is said to be in his "right mind". So-called demon possession has been the subject of modern psychiatry.
The other thing is that the later idea of demons connects them with the newly dead. However we do not accept the idea of the immortal soul - this was one of the first lies perpetraed.

The Greek term does not have any connotations of evil or malevolence.

Are you saying that you have the devil in you, and the Holy Spirit?

My answer to you is a resounding "No!"
This is dealt with in Romans 8 with statements like:
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [is] in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 He condemned sin in the flesh,
Hbr 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Hbr 2:15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
The bottom line is that the carnal mind is put to death when we receive the true spirit of Christ. The devil is destroyed. A person cannot simultaneouslt set his mind on fleshly and spiritual things. It's one or the other.
This idea that the devil is the carnal mind fits very well with Romans 8.

I am glad we agree on the Holy Spirit

I think we still have some differences here -
eg you described spirit being conscious inside us - I find that a strange concept -inside us yes but conscious as a person is -not convinced - but I know the text gets close to that idea
I think you are too singular in your explanations of passages which use the word spirit. You are not willing it appears to accept all the various nuanced meanings of spirit.

[Steve W]

Peter - you quote:

"What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy?" (1 Cor 10)

and you say of these devils: "Paul makes it clear they don't really exist although they can exist in the minds of humans who think they exist."

Well I have always read this to mean that the objects the men make, of wood and metal etc, are effectively nothing - mere dead objects, although men gave their respect and worship to these dead objects. Paul is actually saying - these guys, by bowing before wooden dead idols, which are really nothing at all, are ACTUALLY worshipping devils. He's not saying the devils don't exist - the contrary - he says the wooden idols are nothing, but the devils behind them are real enough - so beware.

He then clearly states that anything to do with these devils is incompatible with the Lord - the one God, the true God. These men Paul refers to, were worshipping devils behind the idols, whether they knew it or not! - that's not their own carnal nature they were worshipping, but some outside agency 'behind' the idol. Otherwise he would have said "they sacrifice to their carnal nature" - which he didnt say.

But you are saying that my/our enemy is the sin within me/us, and this is the devil. I still have my carnal nature, even though I am dead to it.

(Paul: "I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, no good thing dwells" Rom 7:18)

But Paul did not have the devil in him!

you seem to be saying that the carnal nature was the devil. And Paul's carnal nature we know (he admitted it) dwelt within him. So by deduction, you are saying that Paul had the devil dwelling in him. But this is not true.

[Peter]

(Paul: "I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, do good thing dwells" Rom 7:18)

Steve, I think you've misquoted Romans 7:18
The NJKV says: Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; It's the OPPOSITE To WHAT YOU WROTE!
The NIV says:Rom 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. [fn] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
Anyway I tend to think that Paul is using an argument which shows the reader the solution to his dilemma. That dilemma was Rom 7:19 "For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do-this I keep on doing. " So Paul recounting the situation he once was in exclaims:
Rom 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
The answer is in the very next verse -Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God-through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
He goes on - Rom 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
Rom 8:2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.
In other words Christ rescues Paul from his body of death.
So for those in whom is Christ's Spirit who set their minds on spiritual things their life will be peaceful and ultimately rewarding. Yet it is possible for a person to have their minds set on fleshly things. If that is the case then the carnal mind is not to be considered dead.
So we get to the truly important question - Can a person who has had the spirit slip back and become carnally minded. My answer is "Yes!" If the person stops believing then the Spirit disappears.
As Paul says in Galatians -Gal 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
Is it possible to lose faith? Yes!
Hbr 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.

Paul later in hebrews writes:
Hbr 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Hbr 6:5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
Hbr 6:6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because [fn]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

So I think that what I am saying is this:
So long as you believe you have the Spirit. and while you have the Spirit the carnal mind is dead. However if you stop believing the carnal mind can come back to life again. Does not life's experiences tell us that fact.
While you believe the mind of the flesh is dead!
It is possible to fall away
viz,Luk 8:13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

That is why Paul wrote:
Col 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.
Col 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

But you are saying that my/our enemy is the sin within me/us, and this is the devil. I still have my carnal nature, even though I am dead to it

That is a hard one. Who am I say you don't have the Spirit? Yet at the same time I know it's possible for anyone to lose faith. Once there it could not be said they have the Spirit!! I suppose a better term is the one I started using last night - an evil heart of unbelief!
Hence we must take the words that follow seriously:
Hbr 10:38 But my righteous one [fn] will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." [fn]
Hbr 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

[glimmer]

This thread has gone WAY off-topic.
Don't forget this is the "Do You Talk to Jesus" thread.

I know, I know - I'm guilty of going off-topic too!

[Steve W]

glimmer - interesting aside - but I Think I have said that in Paul's flesh no good thing dwells - and I note that 1 John says that nobody is without sin...

" If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 Jn 1:8)

but the point I raise is this - if in Paul's flesh no good thing dwelt, and if John says that nobody can claim to be without sin... Then this forum (who equates the devil to be sin - ie sin = the devil / satan) is effectively saying that we ALL have the devil in us. And I just don't agree with this.

Paul did not have the devil in him. This matters to this thread, as we are told that light cannot have fellowship with darkness. God does not indwell the same Temple as the devil, thus our fellowship through Christ to God is dependant on coming out from under the devil, and not having the devil / satan in us (whether he/it be bound, or dormant, or whatever) I know that at my conversion, as I walk aright in the Holy Spirit, the devil has nothing in me. Although I acknowledge that I do sin, I am not without sin, and, like Paul, in my flesh no good thing dwells. But this is not the devil - it is MY sin, and I must keep a short account with my Lord and advocate and not practice sin willfully. I haven't got the devil in me - I am a holy habitation for God and Christ by the Spirit of God.

"Submit to God, resist the devil, and he will flee" - he is prowling around seeking to devour the brethren, looking for any opportunity - I agree that if we revert to carnal living, then we move out from the Holy Spirit back under the devil / Satan and practice the works of the devil - sin, like a dog returning to his vomit etc....

But can we not as forgiven, righteous believers, with Christ, agree that these statements are also true for us?.....

"the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." (John 14) (talking of Satan)

"Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me." (Jn 8:49)

whilst at the same time acknowledging that cannot claim to be "without sin"?

[glimmer]

Originally Posted by Steve W

glimmer - interesting aside - but I Think I have said that in Paul's flesh no good thing dwells - and I note that 1 John says that nobody is without sin...

" If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 Jn 1:8)

but the point I raise is this - if in Paul's flesh no good thing dwelt, and if John says that nobody can claim to be without sin... Then this forum (who equates the devil to be sin - ie sin = the devil / satan) is effectively saying that we ALL have the devil in us. And I just don't agree with this.

Paul did not have the devil in him. This matters to this thread, as we are told that light cannot have fellowship with darkness. God does not indwell the same Temple as the devil, thus our fellowship through Christ to God is dependant on coming out from under the devil, and not having the devil / satan in us

So, to make this relate to the thread - are you saying you can't talk to Jesus or God if the devil is your sinful flesh?

[Steve W]

no I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we come to God through Christ, and as we do, Christ indwells us by the Spirit, and so we have communication with God and Christ as the Spirit urges us to pray. Now this whole process is predicated upon our being sanctified, purged of our affiliations with Satan, and indwelt by God.

"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son... And ye are complete in him [Christ], which is the head of all principality and power..." (Col 1-2)

We have been translated from Satan's Kingdom of darkness into Jesus's kingdom, and so IN CHRIST we are complete as he is over Satan, so Satan cannot touch us as we abide in him, and our fellowship with Christ is established.

"we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.... Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit" (Eph 6:12-18)

The two are linked I think - being released from Satan's darkness (ie spiritual wickedness - not the flesh and blood variety acc. Eph 6:12), and being released into the Holy Spirit in whom we offer supplication to the Lord.

This tansfer from Satan to God, darkness to light, is evidently SO important that it's one of the last things the risen ascended Jesus physically said to Paul - in person - from heaven ....

Talking to Paul: "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." (Acts 26:18)

This verse tells us so much - people need to turn from darkness and the power of Satan, to light and God - only then can we receive forgiveness of sins, and then receive the inheritance by having faith in JESUS, which opens up direct communication with God through Christ the mediator who removed the obstacles / barriers between God and man.

[glimmer]

Originally Posted by Steve W

no I'm not saying that. I'm saying that we come to God through Christ, and as we do, Christ indwells us by the Spirit, and so we have communication with God and Christ as the Spirit urges us to pray. Now this whole process is predicated upon our being sanctified, purged of our affiliations with Satan, and indwelt by God.

Ok, so since you agree that the "devil' being our flesh (or not) has nothing to do with us "talking to Jesus", I think it should be discussed on another thread.

[Steve W]

Glimmer - I think you've misunderstood my reply there friend! - I tied this response directly into the subject of communication with / fellowship with Jesus Christ. I was going with the flow of the argument and wonder quite why you might want to terminate this thread!!!

[glimmer]

Originally Posted by Steve W

Glimmer - I think you've misunderstood my reply there friend!

maybe

I tied this response directly into the subject of communication with / fellowship with Jesus Christ.

Your posts 142, 144 & 147 have nothing to do with talking to Jesus. We have other threads to discuss the devil and the Holy Spirit.

I was going with the flow of the argument and wonder quite why you might want to terminate this thread!!!

I never said I wanted to see this thread terminated. I want it to stay on topic.

[Steve W]

glimmer - I shall try my best to stay within the topic in future - sorry. I don't always find this easy when the subject matter interconnects sometimes. (I suppose I was just trying to respond to Peter's question addressed to me in post #140 above.)

[Bry]

Yes! Well, that needs a little explanation.

Before I became a Christadelphian I was always talking to Jesus, and with what I believe, considerable good results. So why did I almost stop this practice once I was baptised? There seems to be an emphasis on talking straight to our Father through Jesus, but not directly to Jesus.

However, I have recently picked up my chatting to Jesus, especially when out for a walk on my own. It was and is always very satisfying. I could be asking questions that were on my mind and invariably I would sense an answer. Strange thing is that the wording of the answer is not the way I speak and is always right.

Many years ago I had experiences from which I know that God is very real and I could never dis-regard Him and Jesus at all. The experiences over several months were documented by a research department of a university on the understanding I remained anonymous. Others also were having similar experiences that was reported in The Sunday Times newspaper. I was so amazed at the time that I contacted the paper, hence the research.

I am loath to tell you too much about it, as even here, I could be regarded fit for the Funny Farm and I'll be peeking through the curtains looking for the white van and men in white coats!

So, if Jesus was good enough for me then, why not now, whatever I call myself?

PS: where's the Twitter page gone?

[glimmer]

Originally Posted by Bry

where's the Twitter page gone?

It's in the "General Off-Topic" forum