Puzzled - from whence came sinful flesh.

[Steve W]

I believe the scriptures (as in post 253 and 256). I only believe what the Bible teaches. I cannot be drawn away from the biblical revelation. I will not use human words not in the Bible to describe the realities of Christ and God. They tell us that Jesus came forth from God, came from heaven, that he was with God in the beginning, that he is the Word of God, the logos of God, the image of God, the only Son of God, in him dwelt the fulness of the Godhead, that he was in the beginning with God and was made flesh. What more can I say. I wasn't there so can only repeat what God has revealed in his scriptures.

[Steven]

Hi SteveW

Originally Posted by Steve W

I will not use human words not in the Bible to describe the realities of Christ and God.

I sort of understand where you're coming from, and up to a point, I agree copious use of quotes (and pastes with underlining and bold) is a good thing. More of it. But, there's no law in the Bible that the answers we give have to be direct quotes from the Bible, and Paul we see usually accompanies a Bible quote with explanation "this means"..

But the trouble is we all go beyond the Bible text, even if it's only in selecting versions which agree in translation, or in the slips we all make: e.g. you will say "took flesh" "Jesus' body was conceived", or I or any other Christadelphian, or Methodist or Catholic or whoever, will make similar slips in paraphasing Bible verses which demonstrate the Bible is to an extent in the eye of the reader. So everyone will appreciate the pasting of quotes up to a point, but it's probably not what Peter had in mind in 1Pe3:15 when he said "always be ready to give an answer" = "always be ready to verbatim quote a verse with certain bits underlined and bolded".

Although to give credit where credit is due, the verses you have chosen to paste and the words you have underlined and bolded are a good selection of the more convincing (from a Trinitarian point of view) preexistence verses --- if the bits in bold are read as concrete/literal ontological statements. So it's rather superfluous of me asking 5x (or 6x, I lost count) whether you believe Christ consciously existed before his birth. It's simply the principle that Christadelphians should let people name their own beliefs. I think also you'll find that the pastor of any Trinitarian church you attend would be quite comfortable with you, or any of his congregation, giving a "yes" to such a simple question. But I will respect that you don't want to, and am happy to take the "yes" as "yes", without forcing you to say it

BUT ..... and this is the point for Puzzled - from whence came sinful flesh .... your view of Christ as having literally existed from the literal beginning puts you outside of any Christadelphian discussion about the nature of Christ. That's a discussion that a Christadelphian can only really have with another person who believes Jesus was literally conceived in 4BC.
God bless!
S.

[Steve W]

The question belies a misunderstanding of who Christ is I think - if Christ was in the beginning with God (which he was), and he came forth from God, and the worlds were made through him (which they were), and he is the fulness of God dwelling bodily - his exact representation - he was the word in the beginning (ARCHE) and the pre-existant word was made flesh (see Revelation 19:13 - "His name is the Word of God" - the logos - this is not a literal spoken word, but the identity of Christ in mystical language), then of course he consciously pre-existed, as God (who he represents, and is in the form of, and was always, and was always with) is eternally pre-existant - So Jesus being in form God does not mean he pre-existed in his conceived body (which he took on at conception through to birth) - but this again is not an issue, as God made man in his image initially anyway, so he always was in the image of God - so there is no contradiction.

[glimmer]

Originally Posted by Steve W

"His name is the Word of God" - the logos - this is not a literal spoken word, but the identity of Christ in mystical language)

It's not "mystical language". It's actually quite simple - Jesus is God's spoken word made flesh.

[Steve W]

Dictionary definition of "mystical" = spiritually symbollic / mysterious / relating to the ultimate reality of God....


So let's test the statement above that Christ as the LOGOS is not mystical (in description)...

"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ" (Eph 3:9)

"the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ ....For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Col 2:3-9)

"without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (1 Tim 3:16)


It seems that scripture defines this relationship between Christ the logos of God, and God, as a mystery. Jesus is defined here as "God was - manifest in the flesh... (and was -) received up in glory".

Jesus is (my words): 'God voxed' (or vocalised / voiced) = the logos of God - or God effulged / externalised / manifest into creation in manhood.

[Insearchof]

Steve W. Still plugging away, No one can come to Christ unless drawn of God. and no one can know God, unless Christ reveil Him.
Leave the Matter to them. God knows them who are His, and Christ will turn many away
who think they are.
Why cast your Pearls down, do you get enjoyment from seeing them walked upon ?

[glimmer]

Originally Posted by Insearchof

Steve W. Still plugging away, No one can come to Christ unless drawn of God. and no one can know God, unless Christ reveil Him.
Leave the Matter to them. God knows them who are His, and Christ will turn many away
who think they are.
Why cast your Pearls down, do you get enjoyment from seeing them walked upon ?

What "pearls" are we walking upon?

[Insearchof]

Pearls of great price.

[glimmer]

Originally Posted by Insearchof

Pearls of great price.

If you would be so kind as to point out these "pearls of great price" that Steve W has put forth, I will make every effort not to tread upon them.